Talk:Bile salt

Important Reminders

Hi everyone! This page is getting a little hard to read, so I'd like to take a moment to encourage everyone to adhere to the discussion guidelines outlined in MEpedia:Discussion. These guidelines were put in place to make a productive discussion easy for everyone.

• I also see that a lot of the issues being raised pertain to scientific statements and how to cite these statements. I'd like to take a moment to encourage everyone to adhere to the scientific guidelines outlined in MEpedia:Science guidelines.
• If anyone has any questions relating to the discussion guidelines or the science guidelines, or any other question, please feel free to ask it at the MEpedia:Editor help desk.

Thanks so much for helping out!
Pyrrhus (talk) 22:29, 10 April 2019 (EDT)

Spam

This entire page was created to push a supplement and it's spam, imo. Also, the image does not show a source or license.

Multiple bile salts surround a fat droplet so that it can be absorbed through the lumen.

--77.111.245.222 09:23, 5 April 2019 (EDT)

On the subject of spam, the original effort to introduce the Bile Salts article was not meant as spam. By including an example video of Bile Salts, the creator of the video decided to turn it into spam by excluding the original article, and content.

What was erased was why Bile Salts might be of interest to anyone with chronic fatigue.

After considering the example provided by the health care practitioner who created the video and edited the article, an attempt was made to restore the original content.

This article is not an attempt at spam.

• ahem* The title ‘Bile salts’ must be fully capialized as ‘Bile Salts.’

My thoughts

With editing, we should assume good faith. The potential treatments category covers any potential treatment as far as I can see, including those which are a particular brand (if there's only one brand of it), and being an encyclopedia treatments promoted for ME/CFS without any scientific basis are also covered, including any that might be a bit bizarre in my view, or that are known to not work. Having said that, I know nothing about bile salts, but I see references to electrolytes, magnesium, potassium and ion transportation/channelopathy which are already topics here. The article should cover the facts, with any evidence and/or criticism. It should not read as an attempt to market the product - there's no medical advice on MEpedia.

I don't see any remaining links to direct sales (not sure if they are gone). I'm just a regular editor here so others who have been editing longer or decided on the MEpedia standards will have useful input. notjusttired (talk) 19:52, 5 April 2019 (EDT)

Image source
It seems to have come from this image on WikiMedia's Commons or another Wikipedia site so it's just a case of adding the copyright information, including the license, and the creator. Using Special:Upload for adding new files makes this easier notjusttired (talk) 19:52, 5 April 2019 (EDT)

Scientific sources

Some of these should be improved as per MEpedia:Science guidelines, eg avoid websites with no author name on articles, ideally choose a book or journal. notjusttired (talk) 19:52, 5 April 2019 (EDT)

Clean-up

The MEpedia:Article outlines show the typical format for pages, including headings and category names. How to contribute links to more resources.

notjusttired (talk) 19:52, 5 April 2019 (EDT)

Hypothesis and Opinion w/o Citations

The following has been moved off the page to the Discussion tab as this is hypothesis and opinion without citations.

Post-viral complications due to having had a virus, such as fatigue may be due to a reduction in bile acid production, which would require the addition of bile salts. A virus infiltrating macrophages, the mechanism of primary immune response, may also affect specific phenotypes and also therefore organs that produce the white blood cells.

A noted symptom of chronic fatigue such as constipation can be alleviated with Bile Salts, and is the correct supplement. Bile Salts are also needed to assist in the creation of Bile Acids, which may have been reduced during a viral infection and never restored.

The chronic fatigue sufferer may have developed excellent sleep hygiene, zero sugar intake, zero caffeine intake, taken a raft of pharmaceuticals, tried every supplement available and still have chronic fatigue. A lifetime of experiencing every virus that can contribute to the condition will also have availed themselves of macrophages for transportation.

Supplementation with Bile Salts may be problematic, requires the body to produce insulin in order to be effective. Taking Bile Salts with every meal may be counterproductive, inducing sleep after meals during the day. Recommended to take with a meal five hours before bed. Supplementation with Bile Salts may observe minor relapses of symptoms.

Side Effects

Bile Salts contain appreciable quantities of calcium phosphate and vitamin D3. Bile Salts may also contain Niacin.

Over-supplementation with Bile Salts can result in ‘skid-marks.’

If Bile Salts cause diarrhea, then this supplement is not advised. Bile Salts do not necessarily ‘improve digestion’ as is advertised. They will not necessarily ease the digestion of whey protein, for example.

Calcium Phosphate

Calcium phosphate is produced by the body in quantity as a response to viral infections or mycoses. Calcium phosphate supplementation works very simply and effectively against the onset of a virus. Too much supplementation of calcium phosphate will result in fatigue.

User:Notjusttired If this was true in all cases and the improvement in symptoms was significant, then wouldn't calcium phosphate be sold as an anti-viral treatment? As I understand it, some viruses don't have any specific treatments that are effective for them (although I may be wrong here). I feel this is overgeneralizing notjusttired (talk) 15:27, 28 April 2019 (EDT)

Calcium phosphate precipitate causes muscle fatigue

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2278904/

User:Notjusttired The article proposes a possible theory or explanation but does not provide evidence that this actually happens. It states (highlighting is mine):

"We propose thatinorganic phosphate (Pi), which increases substantially during fatigue, mayenter the sarcoplasmic reticulum (SR), combine with Ca2+ and form an insoluble precipitate of calcium phosphate (CaPi), leading to reduced SR Ca2+ release and a consequent decline in muscle performance as originally suggested by Fryer et al. (1995)."

This refers to inorganic phosphate being generated by the body - oral intake of phosphate cannot be assumed to have the same effect, nor can calcium phosphate supplements be assumed to cause this effect, or the assumed muscle fatigue. Both calcium and phosphorus are essential minerals in the human body - anything implying they cause fatigue in all circumstances would be outside the Science guidelines.

Because complex primary sources can be hard to summarize or fit into existing knowledge it is better to work from a book (try Google books preview) or a summary article that cites very clear evidence from tests in humans. Please put a signature/mark around your new content since it's hard to see what is new. A colon (:) will indent replies notjusttired (talk) 15:27, 28 April 2019 (EDT)

Hypercalcemia Side Effects

“Hypercalcemia Symptoms: Mild hypercalcemia may not produce any symptoms. However, symptoms of nausea, poor appetite, vomiting and constipation may be present with mild increases in blood calcium levels. Moderate high levels of hypercalcemia may produce fatigue or excessive tiredness. Heart rhythm abnormalities, increased urinary frequency, and kidney stones may also be present. With higher levels of hypercalcemia, patients may experience muscle twitching, anxiety, depression, personality changes and confusion. With very high levels of hypercalcemia excessive sleepiness, coma even death may occur. The severity of symptoms for hypercalcemia depends not only on how high the calcium level is, but also on how fast the rise in serum calcium has occurred.“

http://chemocare.com/chemotherapy/side-effects/hypercalcemia-high-calcium.aspx

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hypercalcemia/symptoms-causes/syc-20355523

A person suffering from a complication from having had a flu virus such as fatigue will observe significant addition to fatigue supplementing with calcium phosphate(calc phos http://www.hylands.com/products/calc-phos) though sniffles and sneezes will be taken care of almost immediately. The body’s response to the onset of a virus by producing calcium phosphate in quantity continues long after the viral infection is dealt with.

User:Notjusttired product sales pages are not suitable as scientific sources in the Science guidelines unless there is no alternative, independent source. Supplements are not licensed or restricted so often contain false or widely exaggerated claims. There are [1] a number of different calcium phosphates, it is unclear if all have the same effectnotjusttired (talk) 15:27, 28 April 2019 (EDT)

The body produces calcium phosphate to assist the primary immune response by impeding viruses from using macrophages as a transmission method. A long term response to multiple viral infections over a lifetime is observable by small fractures that don’t heal, or perhaps a jaw bone that does not entirely close after a tooth is pulled.

Since Bile Salts contain calcium phosphate, supplementation after a period of 25-30 days will probably result in a very obvious resumption of post-viral complication such as fatigue. This would be a metabolic change and a sign to stop supplementation.

Once supplementation is stopped, it will take several days to normalize.

Vitamin D3

Vitamin D3 can contribute to heart palpitations after lengthy supplementation. A sign that the body is excreting D3 would be reddish fluid(not blood) on toilet paper after excretion. This is a very minor result of supplementing with D3 and a sign of metabolic change.

A common complaint for sufferers of chronic fatigue is heart palpitations or post orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. POTS is presumed to be as a result of low blood volume. Obviously a person with chronic fatigue but not low blood volume can observe heart palpitations with Bile Salts, but should only be a minor relapse.

If supplementation with Bile Salts has gone on for 25 days or more and heart palpitations or a resumption of fatigue occurs these are signs of metabolic change, thus supplementation should be discontinued, and to wait out normalization.

“Increased levels of vitamin D in the blood lead to increased calcium levels, which may induce an irregular or racing heartbeat.”

https://www.mygenefood.com/vdr-fok1-vitamin-d-fat-heart-palpations/ <= difficult to find on the web due to universal false claims about vitamin D3

Niacin

Bile Salts will contain appreciable amounts of vitamin B3 or Niacin. Niacin is the active ingredient in NADH. CBD oil may also contain B3. Supplementation with Bile Salts at length will contribute to insomnia. This is the same as NADH or CBD oil.

It will seem entirely counterproductive that a supplement that proposes to alleviate sleeplessness experienced in chronic fatigue may contribute to wakefulness.

Very definitive difficulty with sleep is a sign of metabolic change and a sign supplementation should be discontinued.

Niacin Side Effects discussed here:

https://www.everydayhealth.com/drugs/niacin <= difficult to find on the web due to false claims that it cures insomnia

In general, supplementation will lead to insomnia compared to individuals that do not supplement:

“Use of a multivitamin or multiple single vitamins was associated with poorer sleep maintenance compared to individuals who did not take vitamin supplements.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2174691/

The first thing that obliges a person who will resort to supplementation is probably fatigue.

Unless the pharmaceutical industry comes up with a salt formulation that suppresses calcium phosphate, vitamin D, and B vitamins which are all essential vitamins and minerals, then there will probably no elegant, simple solution to chronic fatigue sufferers.--77.111.245.85 09:57, 8 April 2019 (EDT)

The topic of why Bile Salts may be important to chronic fatigue sufferers and what to expect, also the possible side effects must be noted.

Calcium Disodium - EDTA

The active ingredient in Bile Salts is the salt Calcium Disodium.

Concern over bile salts causing irritable bowels stems from the over use of Calcium Disodium. Calcium Disodium or EDTA use will cause irritable bowels for a short period, but should be short-lived.

Mostly Bile Salts are recommended to be taken after every meal, which is sufficient in quantity to arrive at overdose in 10 days.

The notable effects of Calcium Disodium are a lifting of depression, a reduction of anxiety and a return to normalcy.

Since chronic fatigue is most likely due to a hypercalcemic condition, adding calcium can easily result in increased fatigue.

Chronic Fatigue or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome?

There must be a clear distinction between CFS, the multi-systematic illness, and chronic fatigue which is common in many illnesses. This page uses both terms as if they are equivalent. notjusttired (talk) 16:41, 8 April 2019 (EDT)

Information moved here

These references belong on other pages, eg macrophage, channelopathy, ion transportation. Some statements not clearly referenced notjusttired (talk) 16:41, 8 April 2019 (EDT)

Calcium Ion Channel Impairment

Sufferers of chronic fatigue have a noted reduction of specific macrophages, reduced in number compared to a healthy person with no post-viral complications. Calcium Ion Channel impairment in chronic fatigue sufferers: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cei.12882

The use of Glyphosate may be a contributing factor to chronic fatigue syndrome as a result of Hypercalcemia due to a flu virus:

https://www.academia.edu/23875871/Evidence_that_glyphosate_is_a_causative_agent_in_chronic_sub-clinical_metabolic_acidosis_and_mitochondrial_dysfunction

Macrophages In Action

Note how macrophages are relatively stable and ‘absorb’ or digest E-coli. This is how the body succumbs to secondary infection, where an invading virus deactivates the macrophage. Not every macrophage is the same phenotype, and newer macrophages will have the necessary immune response against invading viral infections.

What is not shown here is the production of calcium phosphate precipitate, which is the first available immune response against invading viruses before macrophages with the correct immunity can be produced. Calcium phosphate precipitate may continue long after the virus is defeated.

Calcium phosphate precipitate is made from muscle fibre and bone. Calcium phosphate precipitate as a result of the flu virus reflexively creates more calcium phosphate precipitate. This is the complication after having had a flu virus and is the source of fatigue, what ppl. commonly refer to as chronic fatigue. Medical examination will not find anything abnormal at this point.

Chronic fatigue syndrome comes in when greater complications set in. Calcium phosphate, a necessary salt, as a precipitate can also affect macrophages and affect nerve function.(of course, it can be much more complicated than this from a medical and genetic standpoint.)

https://www.the-scientist.com/image-of-the-day/image-of-the-day-macrophages-in-action-65701

An Example Of Cheap And Readily Available Off-The-Shelf Bile Salts

https://trophicproducts.com/product/digest-aid-bile-salts/

Intestine-selective farnesoid X receptor inhibition improves obesity-related metabolic dysfunction

“Oral administration of a new chemical entity Gly-MCA prevents and reverses obesity-related metabolic dysfunctions. It is proposed that any compound that is orally administered, specifically inhibits intestinal FXR and has no effects on liver FXR signalling, would have utility in the therapy of patients with metabolic disorders.”

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10166

Found here: https://www.futurity.org/bile-acid-pill-obesity-1071062/

MS Linked to Alterations in Bile Acid Metabolism

“Adult and pediatric patients with multiple sclerosis (MS) have significant alterations in levels of bile acid metabolism compared with healthy individuals, new research suggests.

These results, combined with compelling preclinical findings from supplementation of a bile acid in mouse models with MS, have spurred research on potential new therapies, investigators report.”

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/904194#vp_2 (requires subscription)

Calcium Over-Effect -- 65.95.205.47 06:38, August 30, 2019 (EDT)

For lack of a more appropriately useful medical term, the title ‘Calcium Over-Effect’ is used

There are two known causes of fatigue. One is the lack of Oxygen. The other is the production of calcium phosphate precipitate.

There are two oxygen sources that the body uses in the production of energy. Aerobic oxygen, which is readily replaced through breathing, and Anerobic oxygen.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129144/

Fatigue is considered to be a psychological condition but may actually be directly attributable to calcium phosphate precipitate in the body and lack of anerobic oxygen supply.

Oxygen is used metabolically to break down calcium salts and calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate is a very stable molecule, but when in excess supply can use up anerobic oxygen supply.

There is no attributable psychological cause for the a deficit of anerobic oxygen supply, but there is definitely an established cause and effect relationship between Hypercalcemia and fatigue.

An Hypercalcemic condition may be arrived at from having had a flu virus that initially used the macrophage as transport before immunity built up and macrophages were produced that defeated the virus.

But chronic fatigue, a complication due to having had a flu virus may be the result if excess supply of calcium salts produced by the body results in the dramatic reduction of anerobic oxygen supply. A condition of fatigue persists if the anerobic oxygen supply is consistently in use to metabolize calcium salts, even though there is no presence of any virus. There is no psychological attributable cause for such a condition. There is no medical basis in fact for the presumed persistance of the same virus that may have led to an Hypercalcemic condition.

To further complicate matters, the calcium ion is basically the “on” “off” switch in the metabolism. Too many of the incorrect calcium ions directly affects insulin production, affects the production of bile, and may also affect nerve impulses as well as drastically reduce anerobic metabolic oxygen supply.

A “crash” where a wave of fatigue washes over a chronic fatigue sufferer, is the result of an Hypercalcemic condition where the calcium ions present in the body overwhelms the anaerobic oxygen supply.

A source of excess calcium ions and calcium over-effect would be hard water from limescale deposits in the water system. For example, the persistent use of an hot water kettle where the water is rarely emptied out completely and lime scale buildup persistently builds up and leaches calcium carbonate directly into hot water for consumption can be the direct source for an excess of calcium ions that reduce anerobic metabolic oxygen supply, and can also interfere with its replenishment.

See myalgic encephalomyelitis.

See chronic fatigue syndrome.

adverse reaction Any unintended or unwanted response to a treatment, whether in a clinical trial or licensed treatment. May be minor or serious.

The clear yellowish fluid that remains from blood plasma after clotting factors have been removed by clot formation. (Blood plasma is simply blood that has had its blood cells removed.)

serum The clear yellowish fluid that remains from blood plasma after clotting factors have been removed by clot formation. (Blood plasma is simply blood that has had its blood cells removed.)

An unusually rapid heart beat. Can be caused by exercise or illness. A symptom of postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS). (Learn more: www.heart.org)

tachycardia An unusually rapid heart beat. Can be caused by exercise or illness. A symptom of postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS). (Learn more: www.heart.org)

See postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome.

postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS) - A form of orthostatic intolerance where the cardinal symptom is excessive tachycardia due to changing position (e.g. from lying down to sitting up).

adverse reaction Any unintended or unwanted response to a treatment, whether in a clinical trial or licensed treatment. May be minor or serious.

chronic fatigue (CF) - Persistent and abnormal fatigue is a symptom, not an illness. It may be caused by depression, multiple sclerosis, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome or many other illnesses. The term "chronic fatigue" should never be confused with the disease chronic fatigue syndrome.

mouse model The use of special strains of mice to study a human disease or condition, and how to prevent and treat it

flare-up A symptoms flare in ME/CFS is a temporary increase in symptoms, alternatively known as experiencing post-exertional malaise. May be referred to as a "crash" or "collapse".

See post-exertional malaise.