Template talk:And

Undocumented changes -- ~Njt (talk) 23:55, November 12, 2019 (EST)

This template is for general use and not only for page languages. Please discuss changes in future before removing LangSwitch User:Pyrrhus, and be sure that any templates which ONLY use page language have been described as such. This template is used by Template:See also which already used PAGELANGUAGE. If you wish to have and, conjor, or etc templates working only for page language instead of working for user language as well please create separate templates instead, or add a parameter. Templates that not have existing documentation are expected to work exactly as described in the source website they can from. Unfortunately What Links Here often fails to identify templates that are in use, as was the case here. ~Njt (talk) 23:55, November 12, 2019 (EST)

I think you're quite confused here, Njt! The only thing that has changed is that now there are more translations than there were before. That is the ONLY change! There are far more translations available through MediaWiki:And than there were available through the paltry LangSwitch. You are confused about PAGELANGUAGE, but this template can use any lang you provide, and it previously did not specify ANY default language, which was a serious bug that I have fixed. This change was necessary for me to translate the Template:See also template. Please discuss any concerns before you make any reverts, just as we previously agreed. Now I have to revert your confused reverts.

Pyrrhus (talk) 00:15, November 13, 2019 (EST)

Fixing the existing default only needed a single character edit. Please read the description I left in the documentation page I just created. It's not helpful to re-revert when you do not yet understand the reason for reverts - better to finish the discussion then began an edit war. I am concerned that you may be missing a number of special cases in language templates when the grammar or punctuation does not conform to latin-based language rules, as is the case here. Your change introduced extra space characters in two different languages. LangSwitch cannot be universally removed - each case needs to be looked at separately. ~Njt (talk) 01:01, November 13, 2019 (EST)

Please be respectful of other editors. Your conduct is contrary to the concept of collaboration, as I have had to point out to you before. If you do not understand the changes that other editors have made, simply ask them to explain them. Your hostile reverts were unapproved and entirely un-called-for. I think you need to take a deep breath and try to think rationally. If the spaces cause problems, they can be removed, it's not a big deal at all. Note that I did not invent the changes made, I simply copied them from Template:Comma, which is another general-purpose template. You should take a look at that template to understand the right way to do things. As you yourself has said, translations are better through interface messages than through LangSwitch, so if interface messages provide more translations, than LangSwitch can and will be removed. Please be respectful of other editors and try to think rationally.

Pyrrhus (talk) 13:56, November 13, 2019 (EST)

I did not intend to be disrespectful towards you, I am sorry if I was. I don't recall agreeing to discuss changes before reverts in the past. I would also appreciate you discussing reverts rather than immediately reversing then since there were good reasons for reverts. On a separate note, would also be helpful for clear explanations to be added rather than "c/e", which doesn't tell me what is being corrected (eg on the Comma template you mentioned). I have noticed that you do revert changes when you feel it important to do so without prior discussion (I am not saying that your reverts should not happen, only that I believe both of us are doing the same thing). Moving on from that, the template now assumes that there must be a space character in the same places on every language translation, which is not the case for several of the languages. It adds a single space before the word "and" but not after it. In the comma template you mentioned the different languages use the space characters consistently, but that's not the case for the translation of "and" (I went back to MediaWiki Commons to check that). That is the reason for the reverts I made. I've created an example using Japanese, which should not have any space before or after the symbol/word for "and" to demonstrate what I mean. Hebrew (he) is another language whether the space character (coded as <code> </code> in LangSwitch) isn't used on both sides of the "and" word/symbol, but as a left to right language this is harder to show in an example. I am not sure but I think the use of system messages may be adding extra space characters. The reverts I did simply took the template back to the live version which worked for all languages. It may be worth categorizing this template as an intricate if exemptions are needed for several languages, which I think they are. Template:Comma on Commons, and Template:Conj-and on Commons show the differences, with Conj-and using code to represent where spaces and needed before or after the "and" translation. Similar issues exist with Template:Or (Template:Conj-or on Commons) eg for Chinese (zh). ~Njt (talk) 12:51, November 21, 2019 (EST)