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Talk:Michael Sharpe
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==Locking the page == [[User:Sisyphus]] I appreciate being tagged. It is not OK to exclusively edit the page, since that prevents collaboration. A cleanup tag should be used if citations are missing, but please add what's missing after each paragraph / section rather than leaving large sections unreferenced. The cleanup tag can be used to highlight which sections it refers to. I've added the cleanup tag but you may want to move to the relevant section instead. [[User:Notjusttired|notjusttired]] ([[User talk:Notjusttired|talk]]) 18:38, September 10, 2019 (EDT) [[User:Notjusttired|notjusttired]] The note was there because I was inserting the references. I already have them before uploading my text, it just takes a while to insert them all. You have requested me to first work in the discussion section before doing any changes, but I think it shows that this is not a productive approach. I have all the references for the text I propose below it's just much harder to insert them in an orderly way. Most of the comments you make are about not having access to these references to check things. I think it would be much easier if I upload the things I have in mind on the main page so you could comment on that. If I made mistakes or important omission you can point them out here and If you're right or I can't answer them I would be happy to help restore the older version so that this doesn't cost you too much energy. Since all versions are automatically stored, I don't think there's a danger of losing any information. If there was a large text with dozens of references on the main page and I changed or deleted it drastically, then I would agree that trying to contact the person(s) who wrote it and discuss some things on the talk page would be the best approach. But the information on all the pages I've worked on recently was relatively limited and I retained most of it. In the case of the Wessely page I didn't explain the changes I made in the discussion section. That was a mistake of me and might explain why we got off on the wrong foot. I will try to explain any changes I make in detail in the discussion section from now on. But working out and discussing the text in talk section first doesn't seem effective for the reasons described above. So I will now insert the changes I propose on the page for Michael Sharpe, as this will make it easier for us to discuss them. I'd be happy to help out of things need to be restored. Finally, you say that "It is not OK to exclusively edit the page, since that prevents collaboration" which I don't quite comprehend. As I understand it this isn't how most editing works on MEpedia, so I don't see why things would need to be different for me. The page on Sharpe has been there for a while. People can add information on it if they like to work on this. I've worked on it because there wasn't much on the page about his work and career and I have read a lot about this over the years. If people see any mistake or ommissions in my text they can correct it or point it out in the discussion section where they can tag me. I don't see why I have to set up a collaboration with someone if I want to edit a page. The thing I do differently is that I focus on a subject in depth before adding info on it on a page. I understand that could make it difficult for other editors to check that info but I believe it is the right approach for achieving high accuracy on a controversial subject (to first get a comprehensive overview). I hope to have build up some credit from previous pages I did. I will surely make mistakes like anyone else, but I try to be careful for example by using direct quotes and using references for every statement or claim. Most of the criticism you have made is about not being harsh enough on the researchers or that I try to make the text more neutral and balanced, not that I'm making unsupportive claims or overstatements. So I hope that indicates that I'm cautious about what I write. --[[User:Sisyphus|Sisyphus]] ([[User talk:Sisyphus|talk]]) 06:26, September 11, 2019 (EDT) ::Thank you for replying. Every time you do another huge series of edits without discussion I consider reverting the lot to be honest because I can't follow the reasons and/or I think there are incorrect statements, so I think I will do a revert as you suggested. For me it's actually ackward to do a side by side compare of large changes because they are hard to read or scroll on a tiny mobile screen - although small changes are easy. I was annoyed by your suggestion that talking about large changes is a bad idea though, when it's exactly what is needed here. I don't follow what you mean by thinking that others look the page with a "don't edit this" message - it's not something I have seen before and certainly not what others should be doing. I really am discouraged to hear it's happening elsewhere. This is a collaborative skill - but to be editing also basic manners. What if someone else wants to update the page while you have that message up, or your want to do a change but someone else locks the page for days? Or is the only page you have an interest in editing? Many of us just do small tidying up edits or only edit when we can manage so coming back another time often means that unfortunately it doesn't happen at all. Try looking at it this way - why should you have priority over other editors? How can we possibly manage that and how it that fair to others, including new editors? The only priorities here are user rights and everyone has the same right to edit almost all pages (with a few key pages like editing guidelines or configuration restricted to frequent editors - like yourself - or admins). It doesn't make sense for a few editors suddenly be seen as exempt from the normal processes simply because they have done the same thing before or because they edit a lot. Please reflect on what you are suggesting and how it would feel to be on the receiving end. Wikis including this and Wikipedia work by collaboration and agreeing. If you did try this on Wikipedia or most large wikis you would find your edits reverted and most likely the edit warring - which fortunately is something that is rare here. When you make these changes it is a huge amount of work to many of us to read all the new content and that takes time and thought. So you might not get feedback the next day, and of course there will be more questions if people don't know which references you are using. If you could use the talk page - or your own user page - to copy and paste from the source version you could not lose the original references to start with. The Visual editor can be used on your user page which would save you a lot of time, you can also create subpages in your user area to separate things from messages (see [[User:Kmdenmark]] for examples). Another way to do it is to make changes but instead of saving just copy and paste the entire content to a new section on the talk page - which will grab the references for you. It really does make things so much easier when everyone follows the editing practices that have been established and have worked well for us. If you wish our policies / processes to change in this way then [[User:JaimeS]] haa overall oversight, and [[User:JenB]] founded MEpedia so it should be discussed with them, or use the talk page to suggest changes, improvements or additions. I do do appreciate your work here and your efforts in editing and hope we can find a way for things to work more smoothly [[User:Notjusttired|notjusttired]] ([[User talk:Notjusttired|talk]]) 08:19, September 12, 2019 (EDT) - There seems to be a misunderstanding here [[User:Notjusttired|notjusttired]]. I had simply put up a note to avoid cross-posting. I was inserting a lot of references and that takes a while. If someone else jumps in and starts editing the new text (for example inserting internal links) than I or he/she might lose our work because of cross-posting. I’ve lost several half hours of work because of this in the past. In fact; we had a similar situation on the Wessely page! I was inserting the references, then you did a minor edit on the page and I lost a half hour of work. So I added a note that I was working on the page and to leave it for a while to avoid cross posting and you responded “I've just seen your notice. I will leave alone.” The note on the Sharpe page was on there for less than a day and I’ve never put up a note like that for a longer period. I wish I could insert the references faster but it’s literally hours of work and I’m too ill to do it in one go. From the things you say about me, other MEpedia editors might get the false impression that I did something else, like preventing others from editing a page! I hope you’ll admit that this was a misunderstanding on your part and that you’ll clear out the confusion. --[[User:Sisyphus|Sisyphus]] ([[User talk:Sisyphus|talk]]) 16:26, September 12, 2019 (EDT) ::Phew. Thanks so much. When there are so many references I try to make the new ones with <nowiki > <ref name="Sharpe2014"> </nowiki > to avoid problems with the numbering changing as the page is edited. I'm going to go back and try to name some to help with this - it will take a number of small edits. Are you OK to discuss headings before going further? And have any old headings line Freedom of Information Act requests put back in for the time being (although this may duplicate some info). [[User:Notjusttired|notjusttired]] ([[User talk:Notjusttired|talk]]) 13:29, September 13, 2019 (EDT) ::: I don't think I'll have a problem with headings being changed. The main reasons why I changed some of them was because there were so many of the same subheading, it was confusing to read. So I tried to put some structure into them. Another reason was to use less subjective and more neutral descriptions. I rather make an understatement than an overstatement on MEpedia. But perhaps you should have a go and make some edits to the controversy section, so I can see what you have in mind. There is no rush, so no problem if it takes a couple of days to do so. --[[User:Sisyphus|Sisyphus]] ([[User talk:Sisyphus|talk]]) 18:15, September 13, 2019 (EDT)
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