Talk:Neuroimmune disease

Archiving information

Due to references not meeting Science guidelines, missing citations and the fact many of these diseases aren't neurological info is being archived here. See ICD-10 for what are neurological disorders. E.g. Autism and Autism spectrum disorders are developmental disorders classed as behavioral. Bipolar is a mood disorder, Celiac is autoimmune but not under neurological. Dizziness is a symptom, not a disease. notjusttired (talk) 20:20, 9 May 2019 (EDT)

I’m not sure what is leading you to claim that autism is not neurological. A neurodevelopmental disorder with behavioral symptoms is still a neurological disease. A neurological disease such as Bipolar can have mood symptoms, but it is still a neurological disease. Perhaps we need to find a more scientifically accurate reference than ICD-10, if such misconceptions really exist in ICD-10.

Pyrrhus (talk) 20:39, 9 May 2019 (EDT)

Neurological means nervous system disorder - while some conditions seem to fit several categories they are not classed in several but in one. This has been the ME/CFS issue for a long time, World Health Organization classes it as neurological which means it's excluded from the MUPS category (General signs and symptoms). To claim all mental disorders are neurological means rewriting all the classification symptoms - bipolar is no more or less of a neurological disorder than depression is. Neurological disorders I think are classes by physical symptoms and symptoms only - as soon ad you go into thoughts, feelings and behaviors they end up in the mental disorders classification.

Autism is currently classed as a developmental disorder. That doesn't mean it's not neurological as well - however claiming it as neuroimmune or immune is following hypotheses rather than evidence. I was not able to find any classification system that included neuroimmune diseases. I've just checked the ICD-10's successor ICD-11 should be considered more accurate since it's a massive update, and autism remains under "Mental and behavioral" but has moved from "Pervasive developmental disorder" to "neurocognitive" (about time too). It's also in the American DSM-5, again not as some kind of mental health condition but as developmental/behavioral - I'm not saying I agree with that - but that's what is currently accepted/agreed upon. Perhaps I should have highlighted the lack of acceptance of autism as an immune disorders. Dementia also has the same issues with classification, as does Traumatic Brain Injury (ie head injury) - neither are currently classified as neurological despite both involving brain damage. The reference for Autism (and almost everything else) was a website promoting treatments, with a single author and no references in the article, for neuroimmune conditions it was claiming 30% of the population has one. That's just ridiculous. I ended up looking through lists of immune diseases to pick out the neurological ones. There wasn't even a neurological category under infectious diseases. I thought there would be books and review articles listing these disorders but instead they focused on the connection between the two at biological/biochemical level.

Similarly, I don't believe it's right to claim ME/CFS as neuroimmune - it's potentially neuroimmune but that is not widely accepted, even though some degree of immune symptoms are widely accepted / diagnostic. notjusttired (talk) 20:07, 10 May 2019 (EDT)

You make some excellent points. Thanks for looking so deeply into the different classifications. I didn’t know that neither dementia nor TBI were classed as neurological! Personally, I have never seen a concrete definition for “neuroimmune”, so I can see why this page is so problematic. Thanks for tackling this difficult page!!!

Pyrrhus (talk) 21:04, 10 May 2019 (EDT)

Neuroimmune disorders

Disorders Commonly Found In Children:

• Autism, ADD, ADHD, PDD, Asperger's, Learning disorders
• Asthma and Severe Allergies (foods, inhalants, chemicals)
• Seizures, Migraines, Hearing Loss, Oculo-motor abnormalities

Disorders Commonly Found In Adults:

• Migraines, Headache, Vertigo, Dizziness, Chronic Fatigue
• Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain, Neuralgias, Neuropathies
• Vertigo, Meniere’s, Acute Hearing Loss, 
• Adult ADD, Anxiety Disorders, Depression, Bi-polar
• Alzheimer’s and Dementias
• Rheumatoid arthritis

Other disorders

• Chronic lyme disease

Immune disorders

References listing more immune disorders would be useful, are any of them not autoimmune? notjusttired (talk) 20:20, 9 May 2019 (EDT)

International Classification of Diseases (ICD) - A system of medical diagnostic codes, created by the World Health Organization (WHO), to classify diseases and other health related conditions for the purpose of international diagnostic consistency. By having common diagnostic codes around the world, health researchers are better able to quantify and track disease burdens. The most current version is called ICD-11. (Learn more: www.who.int)

medically unexplained physical symptoms (MUPS) - Technically, this term means that no cause or explanation for the patient's symptoms has yet been found. However, patients diagnosed with "MUPS" are generally lumped into a psychosomatic, or psychologically-caused category by those in the medical profession, without any scientific basis for doing so.

International Classification of Diseases (ICD) - A system of medical diagnostic codes, created by the World Health Organization (WHO), to classify diseases and other health related conditions for the purpose of international diagnostic consistency. By having common diagnostic codes around the world, health researchers are better able to quantify and track disease burdens. The most current version is called ICD-11. (Learn more: www.who.int)

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) - A psychiatric reference book published by the American Psychiatric Association, often referred to as "the psychiatrist's Bible". Although the most recent version (DSM-5) purports to be the authoritative guide to the diagnosis of mental disorders, the editors of both previous versions of the manual have heavily criticized the current version due to the climate of secrecy that shrouded the development of the latest version. 69% of the people who worked on DSM-5 reported having ties to the pharmaceutical industry. Dr. Allen Frances, who headed the development of the previous version, warned of dangerous unintended consequences such as new false 'epidemics'. The British Psychological Society criticized DSM-5 diagnoses as "clearly based largely on social norms, with 'symptoms' that all rely on subjective judgements" and expressed a major concern that "clients and the general public are negatively affected by the continued and continuous medicalisation of their natural and normal responses to their experiences". A petition signed by over 13,000 mental health professionals stated that the lowered diagnostic thresholds in DSM-5, combined with entirely subjective criteria based on western social norms, would "lead to inappropriate medical treatment of vulnerable populations". The director of the US National Institute of Mental Health, Dr. Thomas R. Insel, pointed out that the diagnoses in DSM-5 had no scientific validity whatsoever. (Learn more: www.scientificamerican.com)